Andrei Sannikov: “The most important thing is liberation of a person: in politics, economy, science and creative work”

In an interview to film director Yury Khashchavatski, the leader of the civil campaign “European Belarus” Andrei Sannikov tells about his vision of the Belarusian dream.

- Mr Sannikov, do you consider yourself a politician?

- First of all, I think of myself as of a human rights defender. But I am also engaged in political activities, continuing to do the things I had been involved in the Foreign Affairs Ministry, that is establish contacts with people who help Belarus to become an independent European state. And in this respect I am certainly a politician.

- Then what type of a politician are you under the Western classification: the right, the left, a Liberal, Conservative or a Socialist?

- All these western definitions unfortunately cannot be applied in today’s Belarus. A political spectrum, in which this or that figure could be placed, hasn’t appeared here yet. According to views on economy I undoubtedly belong to the right. In my views on societal development I share the pro-independence position, as everything Belarusian has been destroyed in our country methodically (both by the Soviet power and Lukashenka’s regime), and it demands energetic and effective restoration. And only on this basis we would be able to build a normal state.

- What are your parents?

- My mother was a teacher of Russian all her life. First in school, then in a university, and now she is teaching foreigners. My father is a well-known Belarusian theatre critic and fine art expert. Unfortunately, he died too early.

- In the 1960ies the dissident movement started in the theatre community, didn’t it?

- Yes, one could show one’s discontent openly only in direct communication with people in the theatre, as television was undeveloped, and certainly under control, like all newspapers.

I remember Bertolt Brecht’s play staged in Yanka Kupala Theatre “Man Equals Man” (Mann ist Mann) very well. A song by Vladimir Vysotski was sung: “Lambs are marching in rows. Drums are rattling. The skins for these drums/ Are the lambs’ own”.

The play of Andrei Makayonak was produced by the same Kupala Theatre “Fire Victims”, which is basically about the cult of personality. This play is of current interest even now. It is about officials from a region, appointed from above, who had climbed the heights of power in the party and start to drag their relatives up with them. They occupy all positions and posts, and the vertical of power is built.

- Why did you left the team of Lukashenka so quick?

- I have never been in his team. I worked in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs since the 80ies and never knew who Lukashenka was. When Uladzimir Syanko became minister, he invited me to return from abroad to the central office of the ministry. My main aim was to help create a professional foreign policy establishment of the independent democratic state.

- Do you regret your walk-out from the Foreign Ministry in 1996?

- I have no regrets. In fact, I continue to be engaged in the same activities. The mission of a diplomat is to increase a number of friends of his country, and in no way a confrontation with representatives of other countries. Moreover, it has allowed me to live with a safe conscience. I planned to leave before, but as further events showed, the year 1996 became a kind of a watershed. Unlawful seizure of power by means of forcible changes in the Constitution.

- They say that every person has one’s mission in life. Do you have one?

- It is a difficult question; I am not ready to answer it at once… I feel that I could do something for Belarus, so that to be proud of my country eventually, and not feel ashamed for it.

- Over all these years you are taking an active part in many street protests of the opposition. When did you start to take part in protest demonstrations? What have moved you to action?

- Almost all my life I was an official, not a street activist. Naturally, I had to overcome certain barriers, and to realize what protest rallies are needed for.

A human rights defender Valery Shchukin has influenced me greatly, who constantly said: “We should take to the streets! If we won’t come out to the streets, nobody would learn about us”. By his beleif in his rightness and his example he showed me that these are things we cannot do without.

First I started to take part in pickets, then in demonstrations on Freedom Day and the Chernobyl Path. Then I became one of the organizers of such rallies as Freedom Marches, “For better life!” march and others.

- Which protest rally do you remember most?

- In the Soviet time in 1989 I took part in the march to Kurapaty during the second celebration of Dzyady, when the Cross of Ordeal was installed there.

The march “For better life!” in 2003 is memorable. As an organizer of the rally I was arrested for 15 days. I was accused of shouting anti-governmental slogans, and in particular “For better life!” You should agree such things are impossible to forget.

In the prison in Akrestsin Street I was sitting in one cell with Zmitser Bandarenka and Leanid Malakhau. We had to celebrate the Freedom Day behind the bars. And it was a decent celebration of the holiday, with a white-red-white flag. Zmitser even delivered a lecture about proclamation of the Belarusian People’s Republic for the hooligans who set with us.

- You are speaking so lightly about the prison, with a smile. What kind of dictatorship it is, when prison is something amusing?

- I am not saying it was amusing. When we were sitting there, the temperature was 20 degrees below zero, and +8 - +10o C in the cell. But it is really important to have people who could support you in your cell beside you. It helps to come through torturing conditions of the punishment cell. I am speaking to everyone and everywhere: anything at all could be done to people who are serving the arrest in Akrestsin Street. The most awful period is the time before the trial: the arrested are kept either in the so-called “monkey house” in the police department, or in Akrestsin Street in the cells with homeless and criminals. Actions of the police are very mean: they do not give information about the whereabouts of a person, which is contrary to all international norms. When human rights activists try to find out where the arrested are kept, none of the police departments give this information. One can find out anything only in indirect way or when someone had managed to call.

So there is absolutely no fun in Belarusian prisons. I do not exclude that many people who were in detention in Akrestsin Street remand prison for several days, not to speak of longer terms, caught diseases which have already or will tell on their health.

- In the current context when the so-called dialogue of the Belarusian authorities and the West has started, does the democratic and European path of Belarus which is represented by you and your friends has more friends or more enemies?

Now we are observing an attempt to include Belarus in common European projects via Lukashenka. And today in Europe there are rather strong political figures that are playing Realpolitik. First of all, one should mention Javier Solana. It is always easier to announce that some insignificant changes have allegedly taken place as a result of cynical games, than to push for real changes in the situation. But the Belarusian civil society, Belarusian democrats have gained serious support in Europe and worldwide thanks to persistent upholding of ideals and principles of freedom and democracy. Through the European and international civil society we would always be able to influence the European policy towards Belarus.

- But Lukashenka is saying all the time that nobody is waiting for Belarus in Europe. Indeed, who is waiting for us in Europe in terms of economy, where trade “wars” and some preferences exist? How would we be able to proceed from declaration to real cooperation? What Belarus could offer to Europe except oil transit? Or is the European vector of our country’s development a myth?

- Proceeding from such reasoning, we are expected by the Arab countries, North Korea, Libya and Syria, the countries with which our relations are developing actively.

- And why is it bad?

- It is bad since dirty schemes are used here with emphasis on arms procurement, military or double-purpose technologies, which causes problems to the whole world. And primarily to the countries which are taking part in that.

It is easy to say in a populist way that nobody is waiting for us in Europe. As a matter of fact, inactivity and absence of desire to carry out political and economic reforms are behind that. Europe wasn’t waiting for Bulgaria, Romania, the Czech Republic, Slovakia. Nevertheless, all these countries are members of the European Union now.

I am convinced that European integration is a success story not only in our region, but worldwide. All member countries of the EU have won. No matter what problems exist there now; these are problems of a different degree. Let’s approach this level, let’s make Belarus compatible with the world. For me the world starts with Europe. Being a member of the European Union we would be able to defend interests of our sovereign state.

- But isn’t today’s manifestation of the crisis in the Eastern European countries, not to speak of the CIS countries, a confirmation of the fact that the Belarusian economic model is the most stable and is not subject to violent fluctuations which are taking place around: unemployment, bank systems’ bankruptcies?

- Basically, the Belarusian economic system is a Soviet style system, with some modifications. The Soviet system had also been considered very stable. It seemed that nobody would defeat this totalitarian machine. When Andrei Amalrik wrote his book “Will the Soviet Union Survive Until 1984?”, it was viewed as a science fiction, Utopia. But he was right! This model is nonviable: it is so rigid that it does not allow the mechanisms which are to support it to be reformed. This system is based only on duress, violence and repressions.

It’s true, the crisis in the economy, bank and mortgage spheres is an objective phenomenon. But what is happening there during the crisis? When the government is inert, and does not defend interests of people, then under public demands of more effective economic management, they resign. It means that there is hope that the new government with crisis managers would rescue the situation.

Secondly, own neighbours Poland, Lithuania, Latvia are receiving considerable aid from the European Union to support their institutions both inside the EU and inside the whole system of the Western democracy. The IMF which works with developing countries, supports financial, bank and economic systems in Europe, as this model of integration is most viable and promising in the respect of overcoming the crisis.

And Lukashenka’s model could result in collapse overnight, like is happened in the Soviet Union.

- Now, in the conditions of the crisis, the Belarusian regime is taking huge credits, the state’s foreign debt is skyrocketing, secret, behind-the-scenes deals on sale of enterprises are made. What are possible threats of that?

- This is a very dangerous situation. Business mustn’t be dirty, and deals mustn’t be secret. Everything should be controlled by the public and independent media. We should develop relations with all countries on the terms which would bring the greatest benefit to the country and its people.

It is madness that the regime is accumulating credits today. Lukashenka can drive the country into such bondage that it would become a bankrupt. And then, it is possible to sell debts of the country. Entire countries were bought in this way in the 1990ies – their debts were bought, and in fact they were losing their sovereignty.

- When one talks to people in Belarus, one could often hear: “I do not like what is happening in the country, but I do not know what to do. I cannot influence anything.” What could you say to these people? On what and how can they have an impact?

- It is a widespread opinion indeed. But there is a well-known answer to that: every person matters. Let everyone try to look inside oneself: what do you need? I need a decent job and decent salary, for instance. I want to have professional self-realization in my country. Does Lukashenka’s system give possibilities for that? No, it doesn’t. Take any professional or social groups and look how many barriers have been created, that prevent a person to develop as a personality, to realize one’s professional potential, and to be a good provider for one’s family.

We offer people to free themselves from all artificial barriers. It is democracy that brings about liberation of a person. Everyone would be able to say: why should I obey an idiot who is my boss and who acts only in his own interests? I can assert my rights and insist on having a normal boss, or become one myself when I know this subject better. If I want, I can work in private business.

This freedom is necessary for people in order not to hold tight to trifling sops from the state, not to wait till the pension age at low-income jobs, but to understand that they can realize their potential as it happens in Europe. Look how Europeans and Americans travel all over the world – both the young and the elderly! It is impressive that without pawning their houses and cars people have a possibility to travel, to have social life, to discover something new all the time in the world which is full of interesting things.

- By all accounts, Belarusian democrats are to take part in the upcoming presidential elections. In 2008 many boycotted the “parliamentary elections” because they were neither free nor fair. Why the democratic forces should participate in the presidential race? Do you hope they would be more honest and free?

- Personally I actively advocated the boycott of the “parliamentary elections”, when it became clear that Lukashenka’s regime became too impudent. It has become so impudent that they didn’t care to create any appearance of competition. Just remember: the number of candidates for deputies was minimal. People who would become members of the “chamber” were appointed beforehand. By joining and withdrawing their candidatures, democrats could have really demonstrated their force. And it would be difficult to cope with this situation for Lukashenka and Yarmoshyna.

But today I support participation of democrats in the presidential election, as we can offer a real alternative to people. Democrats’ victory in the presidential elections would become a key to changing the situation in the country.

- You, democrats, promise that the moment you come to power, the life would change for the better. Or do we need reforms?

- I am sure that we would find effective ways to overcome the crisis. Belarusians who are waiting for changes do not expect that salaries would soar overnight. What good would it do? It would bring nothing. However, favourable environment would be created for development of economy and business. The most important thing is for the class of owners of small and medium-sized business to emerge that would be able to work peacefully, without shouts and commotion, and earn money for them and for Belarus.

- Can you formulate the key positions of your political platform in 30 seconds? Or are you just criticizing Lukashenka’s regime?

- I can formulate it even in less than 30 seconds. It is to guarantee freedom and liberation of a person in all spheres – in politics, in economy, science and art. In order to create environment free from intimidation and pressure, and to empower potential of a person, of society, enterprises, companies, creative teams, schools and so on.

- It means that with the change of power the country is to stand on the verge of great reforms in all spheres, as Lukashenka’s regime exploits the things which have remained from the Soviet past. As Chernomyrdin said, forecasting is a difficult thing, especially when it concerns the future. Could it be forecast now how long these reforms would take? When Belarusians who have believed the new regime would be able to live in a respectable way?

- Actually, there will be a period of reforms, but the society is waiting for it. Under the present government we have passed from one stagnation period into a new stagnation period very soon, and later into a crisis. We have a good experience of our neighbours who have passed through all stages of reforming, including reforming of huge enterprisers – a legacy of the Socialist system – through privatisation. And if their “bumps and black eyes” would be analyzed, this period wouldn’t be long. I think that foundation for all the main points of growth would be laid within the first year.

- Is maintaining of friendly relations with Russia possible at the same time as Belarus’ integration into the European Union would take place?

- I do not want to turn into a naïve day-dreamer, so I will speak about real things. Now, under Lukashenka’s regime conflicts with Russia are taking place in many spheres, and in some spheres they have even intensified. Let’s recall all those gas and tariff wars, blockade of imported goods, informational confrontations, absolutely non-transparent negotiations which are hidden from people.

A conflict with Russia is also possible along with integration to the European Union. But a democratic regime is able to solve this conflict. No other country except Belarus is more interested in the relations with Russia to reach a normal level, and those dirty schemes which are helping Lukashenka’s regime and Russian oligarchs in lining their pockets to disappear.

Look what is happening in Ukraine. Problems of our neighbours are greatly connected with the fact that the leadership tried to conceal deals with Russia in the oil and gas industry from people. Undoubtedly, we shouldn’t promise that our relations with Russia would be problem-free, as they have their interests, and we have ours. Now Lukashenka’s regime does not defend interests of Belarusians. In order to defend the national interests, we will establish good relations with Russia on a legal basis which would be laid down thoroughly.

- They say that Russians and Belarusians are almost the same nation. So maybe one shouldn’t exert an excessive force on the peoples and artificially divide them? It is possible that the idea of a “union state” with Russia is not so bad?

- Are Russians and Belarusians the same nation? It is not even funny. It absolutely contradicts the truth and is out of keeping with the mentality of the people.

- What do you mean?

- To live in a big state and feel oneself a part of this state’s might and live in a moderate-size state being aware you are a defender and a part of this state, are different things. And even according to this feature Russians and Belarusians are absolutely different. I want to live in my state, it is not so big, thank God, and easier to rebuild. As for “exerting an excessive force”, such things are done in Russia.

I would like to repeat: we are not going to look for enemies. We are facing a challenge to look for friends. Unfortunately, there are less of them in Russia now because of the objectives it has chosen. It is a big state, and it wants to become even bigger, if not in practice, then at least through some military or ideological schemes. We do not have such a complex, so let’s live by our own wits!

- You personally have played a certain role in nuclear disarmament of Belarus. Do you regret that? The country has lost an economic and political lever.

- Why have we lost an economic lever?

- We would be able to put pressure…

- In which way?

- By our force.

- Let’s speak in the language of facts, and not abstractly. If we have preserved missiles, then firstly we would have a conflict with Russia which believes it were its armaments. And we considered that to be a common property of the Soviet Union, so we had a right to say “yes” or “no” at least. We had received that right and said: “No to nuclear weapon on the territory of Belarus!”

Secondly, today these missiles would become unfit for use, and I assure you, there would be no economic pressure. We would have to look for billions of dollars to get rid of these weapons. And the most important thing is, if this arsenal stayed at our territory, we would become an objective for strategic plans of retaliatory strikes. There would be such a strong pressure from all sides including Russia that economic cooperation won’t develop at all.

So nuclear disarmament of Belarus was an absolutely correct solution. And the leader of the state of that time Stanislau Shushkevich should be praised for that certainly. We showed ourselves to be a decent and reliable partner in international relations.

- Lukashenka calls Belarus a socially oriented state. Which social protection guarantees would be granted to the population by democrats, and which benefits would be repealed?

- It seems to me that Lukashenka calls the state in a different way. First he spoke about market socialism, and now he calls it “a social market” state. In fact, the regime has neared the line when there is no money for discharge of liabilities, that is why almost all social benefits have been repealed. It has become a market measure in the anti-market state, that’s why it has become a much more painful blow on people.

So it is the well being of the state which will grant social guarantees. Undoubtedly, the main attention would be given to vulnerable groups, and primarily the elderly.

- Will democrats bring back benefits?

- Benefits and allowances exist everywhere. When I speak about vulnerable groups, one should understand that these people won’t be able to survive without support from the state. Travel privileges for pensioners cancelled by Lukashenka exist in rich Europe. There they are generous with social benefits for students and the elderly. One should understand that people who cannot gain income any more, as they used to in the economically active age, need support. Undoubtedly there will be benefits. But they won’t be Soviet-style, when a system of distribution existed, and dishonest people often misused it.

- What reforms would be made in the educational system?

- Firstly, the things that have been destroyed should be restored. And the Belarusian lyceum in the first place. The most successful national educational institution had been destroyed. How could such diamonds be thrown away? The experience of the Belarusian lyceum can give a key to solving many problems in the educational system.

Undoubtedly, this leapfrog transformations with transition to 11-year or to 12-year secondary education must be stopped. And certainly the educational system should be built in such a way that after leaving the secondary school a graduate could have a possibility to enter any educational institution, any university of Europe.

- In which way the question of national symbols would be solved?

- It could become one of the first decrees of a democratically elected president. Dignity of Belarusians should be restored. The white-red-white flag and the Pahonya coat of arms are able to do so, as they unite us. They are able to do so not only in Belarus but worldwide. We must respect ourselves and our millennial history.

- And what will happen with the national language? Will there be two national languages, or democrats would introduce one, the Belarusian language?

- I think that Belarusian should be the state language. And the Russian language will de facto remain language of communication. Unfortunately, this language enjoyed greater support than Belarusian over the recent years. In order to bring up respect to the mother tongue in Belarusians, it is to become the only state language.

- And don’t you fear to prejudice people against you by that?

- I am speaking about the status, and not about prohibitions, which might be imposed by some overzealous officials. It is impossible to solve the language problem quickly, particularly through prohibitions. On the contrary, I remember very well the period when Belarus recovered independence. Out television attracted people by good Belarusian, which people started to forget, and some people even might have never heard. It is important to listen to the melody of the speech. For instance, the wonderful Belarusian language of our legendary TV presenter Zinaida Bandarenka gives an additional impetus for studying the native language.

- And what officials of Lukashenka’s administration, members of the present government could expect after democrats’ victory?

- Lukashenka has created such a system of power I which he always assumes responsibility for everything what is going on in the country. Sometimes he tries to shun from this responsibility. Sometimes he develops a split personality. He starts to accuse ministers of everything, to dismiss them, at the same time saying: “I am responsible for everything”. As long as he has assumed responsibility for the whole political system, he is the main culprit of all repressions and human rights violations in the country. And we know people who have taken part in these crimes.

Under Lukashenka the government has always been a technical one. They are not politicians or independent figures. Many experts are to keep their jobs certainly, and possibly in the same positions. It’s impossible to throw away specialists who have come through a very difficult period. While they were able to manoeuvre in the today’s extremely difficult conditions and solve some problems professionally, they can be useful for the new Belarus.

- And how do you assess the political “temperature” of the Belarusian society? What is your forecast: will it become hotter before the presidential election? We have been the dumb millions so far.

- It will rise. Belarusians already feel that the time for choice is approaching. It’s the time of choice for the country. It may be connected with the presidential elections, and it may not. The crisis has affected Belarus rather seriously. And it is a crime that the government and state-run media hush its consequences.

Consequences of the crisis become a subject of public discussion in all countries. In these discussions people are sure to learn the facts that could help them to overcome the crisis. They can address government experts directly; they can act through the parliament, ask ministers who are responsible for economic topics in the government. So they know what to prepare for. Business must know what the government, the Central bank, international and financial institutions will do.

Everything is kept secret in Belarus; people are not given objective information. It can cause momentary rise in “temperature” of the society. Under the pressure of circumstances early elections could take place, and we are to be ready for that.