19 March 2024, Tuesday, 12:55
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Zmitser Bandarenka: Let's Face the Truth

Zmitser Bandarenka: Let's Face the Truth

There is no one and nothing to put the blame on.

The coordinator of the European Belarus civil campaign Zmitser Bandarenka commented Belsat on March of Angry Belarusians 2.0 held in Minsk.

Charter97.org provides a transcript of the conversation.

- This action has been announced. A lot of journalists work at places and all independent media cover it. Still, several dozen participants (a few hundred at the end - note of Charter97.org) is not enough for Belarusians who should resent.

- I agree. Perhaps, there are problems in Poland. I know that annually there are 700 protest actions are held in Warsaw. There as many people came as many of them were dissatisfied with their lives.

- Are others satisfied? The question arises.

- Yes, they are. It turns out that there are no social problems in Belarus, we have good salaries, there is no hazing, Trade Unions feel free. That is, there are no problems in Belarus.

- It's ironic. And if you take the topic seriously, then why are the Belarusians indignant somewhere in kitchens? And when we approach them with a microphone during our surveys - they are also outraged. But they do not resent in the Square.

- You said that there were a lot of Belarusians in the Square. And can say, but I can be wrong, that only Charter97.org and somehow Belsat informed about the action. Others were silent. And we also need to discuss those issues that are real. To my mind, real problems in Belarus today are pseudo-opposition, pseudo-independent media, pseudo-independent Trade Unions, pseudo-civil rights defenders. This is also a problem.

- Whom do you consider "pseudo"?

I know many people who can be labeled "pseudo", because when I was in the KGB prison, I was also offered to become a pseudo-opposition member. I was told "Zmitser, sign the cooperation agreement and we'll help you to reach the "Parliament", for example. We will help you to perform your opportunities at the international level."

When I was in prison, I was given examples of the people who were released earlier than me. And that's why this is the real problem. So, if we are silent about these "pseudo", then we are where we are. For example, the Belarusian National Congress raises social problems, while others believe that there are no problems. And where are other opposition movements? Where are strong Trade Unions? Because the topic is a social one and if we do not speak ironically, but say that these problems are real, then people also see it. I'm invited to take some risks, I'm invited to this action, and the opposition cannot meet the point and the rest are silent. One website of ten discusses it. This is the point.

- Is this the merit of special services? I mean the rift in the opposition.

- I think, yes. I think the reality is that Belarus now is a totalitarian country. And there should be slightly other ways to fight the totalitarian state and its special services. And it starts from conscience of individuals who work under control. I do not say that everything is controlled by special services. But, somehow, some are satisfied with the situation when their representative is appointed to the "House" and they say: "We are the opposition!". Show off when they travel abroad and say "we have a representative in the Parliament". This lie has its power and people see it.

- It turns out the authorities feel good for 20 years. Both parties are satisfied.

- Let's miss this issue. People in the Square today are the opposition!

- Let's talk about them.

- There is pseudo-opposition. For instance, Kalyakin with a communist party or a socialist one. He says: "There are neither problems, nor tension in the society. What is the need of a protest?" Or Yarashuk, the leader of independent Trade Unions, says: "On the one hand, the state cannot prohibit Trade Union actions, because it has signed international agreements." But on October 7 they were simply snuffed out, they did not do anything at all. Because they were not allowed to legally go to Bangalor Square.

- But today no one has given this opportunity either.

- But it is opposition. So, this is a real number of opposition members. At the moment, we have these determined people, except for those who are in prisons now. Let's face the truth.

- Let's keep discussing the action. Of course, there are things Mikalai Statkevich tells about - preventive detentions, fines. This is also the reason why people do not want to be involved.

- We live in a totalitarian country, but we must all understand that the country can disappear. Moscow also observes these actions. Salaries are not raised in Belarus. But if Belarus does not protest against joint exercises, if Belarusians do not want to take the streets today, it means that our eastern despotic neighbor also sees this.

That's why I say that the issues of today's March, the issue of its paucity is a question for all of us. For journalists and for the opposition, for analysts and for ordinary citizens. Maybe the Belarusians do not deserve to be called a nation, maybe they do not deserve to have their own state? We see how the Catalans want independence, they fight for their rights, hundreds of thousands - millions of them take the streets, but Belarusians do not want, they want to sit in kitchens. So, today the state of things is as that.

- But Belarusians mean too much. Of course, there is such a part of citizens ...

- But the March is held not in London. It takes place in Minsk. Unfortunately.

- But there is such a part of citizens, unfortunately, who say that it would be better to join Russia.

- Yes, that what I mean. Belarus may survive at the level of Bejshnoriya with its conscious citizens and everything will be "fine". It will be mini-Belarus...We are where we are. I want to say that Belarusians can be proud of such people as Statkevich, who spent 8 years in jails (including preventive arrests, criminal cases and penal colony settlements). And today he is on the Square And here is our flag. The first leader of independent Belarus has recently said that there is a need to rally around it.

- And where are other representatives of the Belarusian opposition?

- At the moment, this is the whole opposition. Others are pseudo-opposition, except for those who are in prisons. And this is fact. Let's face the truth: about the same number of people came on September 8, and the rest say: "No! Lukashenka is the guarantor of independence." Milinkevich was in this studio. Neither he himself nor his representatives were present on the action. He was absent on September 8 as well. But he says: "Lukashenka should be invited to Brussels, as he is the guarantor of independence." So, maybe he should stop being an "opposition member" and get a job in the Administration? Or, perhaps, they already work there.

- We hear different stories of people on the Square, and now a man from Brest says that Lukashenka was an idol. Obviously, he voted for him and now his life has become a hell. Is this the only story in Belarus?

- I'm glad to see the person fights for his rights. He says that he was with his daughter on the protest action. He appeals, writes complaints and participates in this action. And it can only be welcomed if we mean specific cases. Now we are shocked by hazing in the army. A lot of people are aware of the situation. There are thousands of such stories, bullying, dozens of deaths related to this problem. But nothing will change without pressure on the authorities, without direct action, without protests. The change of power is required. And people know it.

- Of course, the situation in the army has been discussed for the second week thanks to independent media. But for them, there would be no information. In general, there would be no proceedings. It would be hushed.

- The authority has created this system. Figures are the thing that counts. If every soldier is extorted 15 rubles a day and there are 40 people in a squadron, for example, the figures say that it is raised $60-80 thousand in a year only from one squadron. It means million dollars raised in the army which go to high officials. Indeed, independent journalists and independent media raised this issue, but the reaction of those mothers who were already on the way to their children was interesting. They say that such news can make you turn gray.

In one of his songs Garik Sukachev sang: "Grandmas will never finish praying, mothers will never wash it away". Because they close their eyes, they are scared to send their sons to the opposition, but they send them to slavery where young people are mocked at, killed. They want to close their eyes and say there is no problem.

- And the problem is that one cannot rely on legal assistance in this state. This, perhaps, is the main issue.

- For example, I left Belarus because I did not want to be a pocket opposition, did not want to be a puppet. Someone leaves Belarus for the sake of his family, so as not to send their children to the army. There are tens of thousands of them, this is their struggle. And those who send their children to the army here should know what is really happening there.

When, for example, a former policeman says that con's orders are in the army, I will say that it is wrong. No one in prison can deprive you of your parcel. It is not possible there. I can say that the situation with safety in prisons is much better than in the army. It is true.

- After all, the major function of the army is to defend the country.

- We can miss this point at all. Because Lukashenka is as much guarantor as Yanukovich used to be. And when they say that the Ukrainian army was ruined, the Belarusian army is ruined to the ground. This is the reality for now. And only the change of power in Ukraine could move the society and the state forward in changes in the army, police, the authority itself.

- One of our readers wonders whether the opposition is able to suspend protest actions and let Belarusians to act on their own.

- No one bothers them to do it.

Or do you think that Mikalai Statkevich is ordered by anyone to do it? Or Leanid Kulakou, or Jauhen Afnahel, or our hero Volha Mikalaichyk? No. These people represent the opposition. It is not necessary to think that the opposition is like the army, some kind of institution, especially the state one. Do not hide your cowardice, your unwillingness to fight for your rights. Do not lay it all on shoulders of the same Statkevich, Mikalaichyk or Afnahel.

- Let's move to the capital on Independence Square. What is the result of the action? Vyachyslau Siuchyk says that we must thank each participant of the action for courage. Is this really so?

- I agree with Slava. And Mikalai Statkevich was right to say that these people were the salt of the Belarusian land. And we must understand that the 100th anniversary of the BPR (about the worthy celebration Mikalaj Statkevich announced about at the end of the action) is not just an anniversary, it is a kind of Rubicon for Belarus. If the Belarusians ignore the 100th anniversary of the BPR, the country can indeed be given up on. And every Belarusian should understand this.

- Belarusians often complain why they are not invited to actions. And Mikalai Statkevich always wonder why these people do not do anything.

- That's right. And I want to say that in Ukraine, when I was on the first Maidan, it became clear at once: the Ukrainian people were cooler than their leaders. Both Yushchenko and Tymoshenko at one time did not match the rise of Maidan, the spirit of freedom and the solidarity that was in Kyiv.

In Belarus there are people like Mikalai Statkevich - a worthy leader, every country would like to have both during the struggle and peaceful times. Once the great Gandhi said: there is satyagraha, your individual struggle. There is a Lord, there is a Higher Power - and you. And each of us will have to answer: what did I do at that time?

- There is information that Volha Mikalaichyk was detained. She is constantly detained, fines, seized property. People also probably see it and do not want to find themselves in this situation, on the one hand. But on the other hand, someone must do it.

- But people want to send their son to the army, because there is such a tradition to commit suicide there. What to do if a person does not want to think over? I am sure that there will be Volha Mikalaichyk monument in future like it happened to Kostyushko. And there also will be Statkevich monument.

People's indifference to lives of their children raise strong feelings in me. Because journalists made everything possible: they told about hazing. And only one woman stated that she would do her best not to send her 16 year-old son to die in the army. Others ignored it. Both men and women. Here we true are!

- It turns out that it's not my circus, not my monkeys.

- What does it mean? There are tens thousand guys in the army and thousands of them have been recently recruited. And later they suffer mental changes and some of them later go to serve in the police and these tortures spread to others. This is not a joke. Today real problems are discussed. And this hazing information campaign, this action discussion in Minsk may give some impetus. Or, perhaps, not. So there will be no one and nothing to blame then - neither the West, nor the East, nor rain, nor snow.

- If there are any complaints, then we are the ones to be responsible for them. Thank you for your work in the studio!

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