25 May 2019, Saturday, 15:32
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Zianon Pazniak: Belarusian Men Need To Get Ready

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ZIANON PAZNIAK
PHOTO: CHARTER97.ORG/IVAN MEZHUI

This moustached man is terrified of his own people.

Leader of the Belarusian Revival, Chairman of the Conservative Christian Party of the Belarusian Popular Front Zianon Pazniak is celebrating his 75th birthday today.

On the eve, the politician gave an interview to Editor-in-Chief of the website Charter97.org Natallia Radzina.

- Mr. Zianon, I would like to greet you with your birthday first. You are a real legend of Belarus, and you will remain in our history forever. You have been forcedly away from your Motherland for over 20 years, but still closely monitored the situation in Belarus. Has your heart stayed in Belarus?

- Not just my heart, but my mind, the whole situation also keeps me there. I know everything that happens in my country. I have profound information. The only thing is I cannot be there, feel it, breathe it, this is so important. However, while this creature commands the occupation in Belarus today, it appears impossible for me to return.

- In your opinion, what has changed in Belarus for these two decades, and what has remained the same? The question is not about Lukashenka.

- It may seem strange, but civilization develops regardless of borders, regardless of ideologies. There are things that happen in common, in France, in Great Britain, in Belarus. First of all, it’s the apparance that is changing, new technologies manage to leak, so the image of Belarus does not differ much from the European model, at least, is what I can see in the videos, in the photos.

Because, when there was the Soviet Union – it was completely different. There was the Iron Curtain, no information. Now we have contacts... Then, the very siutuation in the world forces to develop the technical progress, there are various, let us say, ideological benefits. This can even be considered a positive phenomenon.

As for negative phenomena, this is first of all the internal policy, aimed at bringing up a dumb generation. However, such generation is being raised around the globe. There is some common influence on the people, connected with the internet, pseudo-values, exchange of people. This is visible in Belarus as well. Maybe, to a lesser extent, as Belarusians, as far as I can compare, are more quickwitted, more adapted to life, more practical, they live their real life to a greater extent, as in the West the people mostly live the values formed by information, especially TV, internet, and phones. All this influences the formation of the new generation in Belarus also, but so far, Belarus has preserved its human characteristics. Although they are being destroyed right in our eyes.

Well, this is probably it, with regard to the changes. This is a sort of a reservation of socialism, where I just feel pity for the people living in it, especially, when I see the young generation coming to the US, I certainly feel the influence of that school, that information, that discourtesy they see every day on TV. The negative impact of this anti-Belarusian power is much stronger, it demolishes human values, human characteristics, and culture. This is also obvious when you meet people from Belarus.

On the other hand, I must say that there is certain environment, people, there is internet, much information that is being formed under different, their own conmditions, in the parallel structures, and, as soon as the situation changes, this good will grow very fast. Of course we will have to live through this regime’s heritage for a while, but ther is a hope for a quick recovery, as it corresponds to the systemic development of phenomena. The phenomena that have been delayed in development, develop rapidly when the gates get open. This refers to literature, art, the civil system.

Therefore, I am optimistic about the future, as, they say, there have been saints before us, there will be saints after us. No matter how small are the numbers of the people who pray in Kurapaty, protecting the stove, but these are people who understand what morality, memory, value is, and what attitude should be to all these things. The future free Belarus will come after such people.

- Sometimes, arguments occur between the people who live in the country, and the foreign diaspora. The former believe that those who fled do not fully understand what is happening inside the country. The latter think that people in Belarus clearly have the Stockholm syndrome, that is better seen from the outside. How can we unite?

- This is a purely ideological trick. As all those people in Belarus, who say “they know nothing there”, “they fled”, “they left the Motherland”, “traitors” and things like that – they have a Soviet syndrome. This is what they have been injected during the Soviet times, these are the consequences.

On the other hand, there is a moment of hypocrisy, as behind these words there are often ordinary trolls and people who just don’t like either Belarus or the people who struggle for Belarus from abroad. I would not take this seriously, as this is just an element of politics and propaganda.

- How do you assess the state of the Belarusian diaspora? Should the Belarusians of abroad be doing more things to achieve changes in their Motherland?

- Of course. The bad thing is, the Belarusian diaspora has no own business, we have no rich people, millionaires. Moreover, Belarusians remain the only nation that does not live jointly. Everybody live in groups, trying to unite, to get together in one common home. Belarusians do not do that, they live where every one of them want to settle. This is a big problem in pure social terms. I live in Cleveland, I come over to the Italian neighbourhood. It’s Italy there, they sit in the street, they have Italian restaurants, own language, they know each other. Belarus has a syndrome – a very strong individualism. This is our disaster. This is our mentality.

On the other hand, there is such a Soviet matrix, embedded in a Belarusian who is going abroad to earn money, to ensure one’s well-being. The unwillingness to work for themselves in a business leads to the fact that our diaspora remains very poor. And in such spheres as politics, civil life, information this is very important. It is necessary to have money to publish magazines, books, to have and maintain internet-portals.

I’ve lived in the United States for a long time, it is obvious. As when we speak about the immigrants from Asia, even Africa, the first dream they have when coming here is to gather money to open own business. They live together, have own foundations, credit unions, help one another to open own businesses.

Of course, there are Belarusian associations, too – cultural, folk ones, but it all looks weak as everything is done at the expense of the society, the people whose hearts belong to it. Other nations in America are developing on a totally different level, as other factors play there. We have separate groups, churches, but they remain very poor.

Herein, there are many Belarusians. According to the information that I have, about 600 thousands Belarusians live in America. Where are they? Everyone is trying to settle down. Maybe some already have, but we don’t knbow that. The period of Lukashenka’s de-nationalization, humiliation of the national, spiritual values is reflected in those people. They flee, they don’t feel the necessity to save the common national values, they only save themselves, settle down and become the mould of somebody else’s history. So, we see that this disaster that the regime created in Belarus, has its metastasis. It spreads abroad. The same problems, here and there.

- You have spoken about the threats from Russia for many years. Have your predictions become true?

- Of course, you see, these are obvious things. People have been so poisoned by the communist propaganda, the Lenin cult, that it required a lot of effort and time that there was a revolution in the consciousness. The people who are zombified by propaganda, do not see real life. They are just blind. This situation was in the 1990s, when only the Soviet Union collapsed, but people remained. They are zombified by the Russian propaganda, Kiselev and other propagandists. They perceive the real world on the basis of a television picture. What they see in television is a real world for them, but the world that exists, they don’t believe this world, everything is turned upside down. And this is very serious.

The enemies of the mankind have long understood and used it. Then, in the 1990s, it was one of the problems - to make sure that the society still saw the real world. To achieve this, it was necessary to talk about this to people. After all, there were immediately trolls who said that people don’t have to hear this, it annoys people, it will affect elections, etc. It all was said by undeveloped and simple-minded people. To make the phenomenon obvious to everyone, you need to talk. The earth rotates, Galileo spoke of this and was dragged to the court. If he hadn’t spoken about this, he might not have known it for a thousand more years.

Now it all came to the surface. Therefore, it is necessary to always tell the truth, and in politics it is the most important tool.

- How can we protect independence? Do you have a plan of actions for the nation?

- In order to defend independence, we need defenders, and that’s the point. Therefore, it is necessary to prepare the environment, ideas, information. If this doesn’t happen, there will be no defense.

The great importance here is with information, the politicians who properly convey their ideas, explain the changes that are happening. This needs to be done obligatory. The process is going on. The people, who are well informed, who are ready for the defense, exist, there are few of them, but they do exist. In this situation, when there’s real threat, it’s no use hoping for some diplomatic or civil actions, or the actions of non-acceptance, some appeals… They should be as they form the public opinion. But in the end, Ukraine’s example showed: everything is decided by weapons, and the people’s readiness to fight for their countries with weapons.

I have been saying this since 2014. The threat is hanging over Belarus and Belarusians. The patriotic men, who are still men, need to get ready for the fight, and it will be the popular fight. We cannot counterstand Russia with the armed forces, but we can do it with the partisan struggle, the popular struggle.

One must get ready for the fight when an enemy is coming, bringing tanks, sending their demons of death, as I call them, here. This refers to all these dekanozovs, vyshynskys, babichs. When an occupation is being prepared, they send such people to the place. They are preparing an occupation. So it is important that our people should be prepared, too. When the people stand there with weapons, then we will be free.

If we are only engaged in declarations and calculations to which extent we have suffered, then it will be like in Kurapaty. They will shoot, and the people will ask “What for?” They don’t give a damn, what for. They just wanted to unroot the entire nation. So, we need to get ready to defend our independence.

- Some politicians both in the West and inside Belarus believe that the dictator Lukshenka is the “guarantor” of the Belarusian independence. What would you say to such people?

- What can I say to a dumb person if they are dumb by nature? In Soviet times, there were many communist fools, poisoned with ideology. However, I have never seen a greater dumbness than in the West. These are political beetle-brains. They cannot possibly understand what is going on in some thousand kilometers to the West. And they don’t want to understand it. They are poisoned with their stereotypes, their liberal, left ideology.

This phenomenon has not occurred just now. It was the same before. They said, why do you criticize Stalin, just vote against him. Today is pretty much the same. That is why we don’t have to tell them anything. They will not understand. We need to hope only for ourselves. As soon as we have power, there will be interest, and relations. Meanwhile, it’s absolutely a waste of time to listen to what they say. I don’t think we need to convince them of anything. I have forcedly talked to such people many times. This is absolutely pointless.

I wouldn’t focus on how how deeply this influences our lives. It’s our attitude that influences our lives. Everything is in our hands, as they say.

- In your opinion, what should the Belarusian army be like to successfully counterstand to the Eastern aggressor?

- It must be patriotic. This is basic. The military should know what the Motherland is and what they are willing to die for. If this happens, nothing else is needed. And if not, then no modern weapon will help.

And so the recruitment to the army must start at zero. Back in the 90s, when we were in the Supreme Council, we had good contacts with officers. We were preparing a doctrine in case Belarus would be free, as a new army should be created. In short, I will say: do not pour new wine into old bottles. Yes, as they did in the Baltic States. It all started at a complete zero, to unroot this “hazing”, all these old ways of the Soviet army. In Belarus, it all remains. All that Soviet army led by foreign generals brought up in Moscow. Therefore, the army we have is now very unreliable.

- In 1993, the BPF proposed the concept of the Baltic-Black Sea oil collector, also the Belarusian Popular Front and the Popular Movement of Ukraine in the early 1990s actively developed the idea of the Baltic-Black Sea Union. How relevant are these ideas now? How do these concepts correspond with the Polish project of the Intermarium?

- We did not offer the Intermarium, but the project of the Baltic-Black Sea Union. The question of the oil collector proceeded from the fact that there will be a political union, since otherwise it is impossible to build a collector. Common political interests are needed.

And here the main link is Belarus. After all, the Baltics, Ukraine, they seem to be divided in the center. And as long as this anti-Belarusian pro-Moscow regime is in place, there will be no union, and there will be no collector.

What does this collector mean? This means that the energy road will not go from east to west, but from south to north, from north to south. And if you look at the whole energy situation, this allows not only diversification to be carried out for these countries - Belarus, Ukraine - to change the course of energy dependence in general. In this case, Russia simply stays aside, it will be forced to drop prices and will not be able to politically influence through its energy flows.

Now gas and oil, Gazprom is politics. Therefore, they were well aware of what this collector is. And so, when we seriously embarked on this in 1993, held several conferences in the presence of the Baltic States, and to some extent Kebich was interested, then Mikhail Baychishin, deputy of Vyacheslav Chernovil, was killed ( one of the founders of the Popular Movement of Ukraine - Charter97.org), who had all the documentation. We met in 1993, and in the end concrete design institutes were already working in Ukraine. We had concrete work to involve our institutions. But this man was killed with all the documents. Well, and after 1993, the year 1994 came. And what happened in 1994? I call this the electoral catastrophe that led to the internal occupation of Belarus. And it all stopped.

But the idea basically remains, and at change of circumstances it will arise by itself. It already arises, since it is a reasonable real proposal to balance energy relations and, first of all, to get rid of political blackmail from the East, since Russia uses its resources for political blackmail. Moreover, even gas is used. When in the 1990s we did the Free Belarusians project when we were in the Supreme Council, then one of our tasks was to reduce trade with Russia as much as possible and find other markets. Diversification was very important.

Any trade dependence on Russia at any time can lead to blackmail. Estonia is a small country, it is easier for them to do this, they have reduced it to almost 10%. Latvians did not do this and how many times they were blackmailed with either sprats or some kind of fish they produce? Russia is a dangerous country in economic relations, as it uses the economy as political pressure on other countries, not to mention the fact that business is used for intelligence.

The Russian business in the West, I know for sure, is 100% of the FSB. And in the West they did not understand this. Therefore, this collector for the Russians was like a bone in the throat. They tried to find fault with it so that nothing worked, and now they have actually captured Belarus.

- In Ukraine, elections were held the other day, the country elected the sixth president. What policy should Volodymyr Zelenskiy pursue with regard to Belarus?

- It will be formed by those people who will lead Zelenskiy. So I think that the policy will worsen. After all, what happened in Ukraine is a 100% victory for Vladimir Putin. It was very precisely designed - this whole company. It takes a long time for people in all former Soviet countries to reach politics and democracy. An electoral catastrophe also occurred in Ukraine. They do not understand this, because everything was based on the non-acceptance of Poroshenko. As a statesman, Poroshenko secured his place in history, he did very important things for Ukraine. But here, they thought with their stomach, thought social categories. They lived hard, saw corruption, did not improve ... And on this wave populists always come to power.

This will be used by Putin and his propaganda, this is the humiliation of Ukrainians. But all in the future. To date, euphoria, they think that there will be some changes. Changes will happen, of course, only in which direction? But I think that this is the worse option for Belarus, since Russia's ability to disorganize Ukraine has increased.

- Belarus will also soon hold parliamentary and presidential elections. It is obvious that the authorities will again falsify their results. How to prevent this traditional scenario of the regime?

- It is impossible to prevent it, you only need to destroy the regime, to eliminate it. As long as this regime exists, no preventive measures are possible.

The people are now suspended from this election. The Central Election Commission is headed by the FSB, so to speak, a full-time agent. No real choices are happening. All this is drapery, the administrative resource decides everything. They don’t even hide. Therefore, it’s no good to go to these elections.

I constantly say that it is necessary to form parallel structures. At least parallel thinking. It exists, Belarusians gradually realize that there is no election, but so far it has not taken shape in any political movements. After all, there is a very strong control over the people.

Why does this regime hold on? And why did this happen in Belarus? Because they have established control over each person. There was no such control over each person even in the Soviet Union. Everything goes in this direction: both the census of the population, and the “parasites”, they create commissions, they will interview each person, come to the house, ask for a passport.

Belarusians live in Korea. A man feels that he is helpless. In court, he will not find the truth, since the court will take such the decision, ordered from above. A policeman can say something that didn’t happen, and a judge will believe him, although he himself will understand that this is all not true. This control over each person, established by the regime, is very dangerous, since it is koreization.

But this regime will not last forever, it has its weaknesses. And yet we are not Asia, we are Europe, and gradually, step by step, Lukashenka is losing control over the society. Eventually, everything will change.

There can be different options. An electoral one. But most likely it will be a variant of a drastic type. I will not decipher what it is. To date, the election will not work, as long as this regime exists. No need to go to these elections. Let them stay with themselves. It is necessary to demonstrate that these are the people who don’t give a damn about the nation and who invented a fake instead of elections, let them hang in the air. If it hangs in the air stronger and stronger, it will fall down like leaves from an autumn tree.

Here is my recommendation on what to do with these elections — no need to support them. After all, who wants to go to the elections? Mostly agents. The people are driven to the voting stations. They have made this early voting. You see what is being done. And this agency comes to the surface. Dzmitryeu is not even an agent, it is a personnel officer of the FSB. These people are starting to talk about elections, fooling the people, because they need to create a picture. But the picture is gone, everything is rotten. And so do not pretend and go to the elections. Let them hang in their cocoon.

- What changes of a “drastic type” can happen?

- This is how it was in 1991, when there was a sharp increase in prices, and suddenly boom! - and 100 thousand workers took to the square. No one expected this. Absolutely no one! Of course, the Front was already there, which helped the workers to organize, but no one expected such activity. No one predicted what it would happen.

This is how the society is built: if a boiler is constantly heated and closed, then sooner or later it will open the lid. So far, there is no such thing, but they are constantly warming it up with these “parasites”, even with the fact they started shitting in Kurapaty, breaking these crosses. They want to demonstrate that they don’t give a damn about this “little people”, that they will do what they want, that they will lie, and they will be believed. They think that they are successful in this.

But everything gradually accumulates, and at some stage it will work. And at this stage it is necessary that there should be people, that there should be information, that there should be leaders who will help to arrange the organizational beginning. Everything the authorities do leads to this.

- Sometimes Belarusians, especially in the Internet, complain that they lack leaders to fight and win democracy. However, there have always been decent leaders in Belarus: you, Henadz Karpenka, Viktar Hanchar, Andrei Sannikov, Mikalai Statkevich, Henadz Fiadynich, Pavel Seviarynets, and many other worthy people. What do Belarusians really lack to finally live in a free and normal country?

- You understand, now an occupational dictatorship of a double type has been established in Belarus, because the whole matrix is being made in Moscow. Lukashenka does everything that is prepared there. Instead of ideology, there are criminal concepts, people feel their lack of rights. Under the Soviet Union, they could still find some truth in the district party committee, in the Central Committee of the CPSU. Here they will not find anything. The authorities act according to criminal concepts and are commanded by the chief “kingpin”. This is the point.

We are not a unique society. Here are the Koreans, a very ancient and cultural nation. On the other hand, look what happened to these Koreans themselves, how they came under the pressure of the dictatorship. The Germans - one of the most perfect nations of Europe. Look at what happened under Hitler, when they came under this press! And we can say the same about many nations.

Any dictatorship, ideological, criminal or narcotic, as in Venezuela, when it begins to control every person and all power, is very dangerous for society. All those accusations that the people are stupid, that they do not understand anything ... Well, are the German people stupid? Are Koreans stupid? And we are not stupid either. But we got into such a terrible situation, from which it is very difficult to get out. We do not know what would have happened to the same Germans if the war had been on Hitler’s side, if he had won. And what happened to the East Germans, who were in the GDR under the pressure of the Soviet dictatorship? They differ from the Western Germans to this day.

Therefore, do not think that we are guilty of something. As in the same Kurapaty, what, we are guilty, that we were killed? Immediately there appeared trolls, propagandists, shouting through their agents: repent that they were killing you. This is the time when the nation must find, gather strength, survive and throw off this burden. I think that Belarusians will succeed in this, because the main force that prevents this is in the East.

If it was not for the support of Moscow, Putin, this Russian mafia system, then Lukashenka would not have lasted six months. We would solve this question ourselves, even in the state in which we are now. We would solve this question if, as they say, Russia flew into space. It should be understood that we are experiencing a period of internal occupation, which was created by the Russian FSB, the KGB regime.

If there was only this kolkhoz man Lukashenka, then we would not have big problems. You see, he is a complete nonentity! This is an uneducated man, a caveman. Just listen what he blabbers out, what he says! People listen to it. Nobody respects him. And yet, he holds on. And not only he, but the whole system that is established by Putin’s residency is being maintained. Who runs the Ministry of the Interior? FSBist and KGBist Shunevich, taken from Lugansk. Who leads education, school? If it is said that the Komsomol is the future of communism in Belarus. The same scout, Karpenka or what his name is. Who rules the Central Elections Commission? FSBist Yarmoshyna. All the key power structures, everything is permeated by the Russian residency.

And now they have sent Putin’s deputy, who is preparing the occupation. I already wrote how the Baltic States were occupied. Huge forces have been thrown there. In Latvia, there was Vyshinsky, this demon of terror. And there was Zhdanov in Estonia, the member of the Central Committee, he signed hit lists. And Dekanozov, Beria's best friend, was in Lithuania. Everything was done as it is done in Belarus. Here they sent this Babich, see what he is doing! And this satrap Lukashenka cannot object to anything, because he is nothing compared to him.

In order for us to free ourselves, we need to liberate from Russia. From the Russian imperialism, from the Russian policy, from the Russian occupation, which is established through internal structures and internal capabilities of the authorities. That is the trouble. And in the West - you asked a question about the West - they do not understand this. This is a very difficult arithmetic for them, because their level of education, as they say, is below the plinth. They do not know how many continents there are, where Serbia is. They have no idea about either geography or anything. This is the highest mathematics - to understand what is happening in Belarus. “Do not elect Lukashenka, what do you vote for?” Here is their concept.

And we must understand that we face the whole of imperial Russia. And now they began to threaten us with their tanks, not treaties. But they will not succeed!

You, Natallia, have brought me a little too far, you know...

- Well, this is good! Now a calmer question. What events and personalities in the history of the new and modern times were the most important for the Belarusian national revival? Who should take the first place in the pantheon of national heroes?

- Kastus Kalinouski, of course. Here is the situation. I will say very briefly. European nations began to develop mainly in the 18th century, and this was due to the destruction of empires. There were many interesting moments. For example, in the Old World, the time when nations were created looks quite different. The same Turks. The language spoken by the Ottoman Empire no longer exists, it is dead, and they speak their native language, Anatolian, Turkish. The names of countries changed. It was a powerful movement - the formation of nations.

In Belarus, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, the revival of the Grand Duchy did not put forward a national idea. It put forward the rebirth of the Rzeczpospolita. And our gentry went in this vein, including Adam Mickevich. They walked in line with the resistance of the Russian occupation, the revival of the Rzecz, and assumed that there would be a Grand Duchy. But they spoke Polish, did not put forward the main attributes of the national idea: language, history, independence.

The national idea began to develop under a new name - Belarus. Somewhere in the middle of the 19th century there were two parallel processes - on the one hand there was resistance to the Russian empire, the gentry were in favor of the revival of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. There were uprisings - 1831, Kasciuszka, Napoleon, during which there were hopes that this would all be revived. And at the same time, there was a national process, which already had to push off from the gentry who saw the old Rzeczpospolita. And the first thing which brought conflicts was the language issue. This is clearly seen in the example of Barščeuski, Dunin-Marcinkievicz. I was just writing a book about Dunin-Marcinkievicz, I thoroughly studied the situation. These contradictions are clearly visible.

So Kastus Kalinouski put an end to this. He even had the password “Who do you love? - I love Belarus! That is commutual”. He wrote newspapers in Belarusian. And he put a dot with his letter from under the gallows. He died for Belarus.

Kastus Kalinouski is a person who confirmed the new nation. In fact, a new principality was revived under a new name. And the gentry who were in favor of the revival of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, in order to get rid of the occupation, actually went over to the side of Poland, the Polish national movement began to develop. There was still such a movement as Krai, but they spoke Polish. These are Tadeusz Rubleuski with the “krai” men, and Ludvik Zhiligovsky, and even Ferdinand Rushits. These were all Krai men. They stood for the local development, for the development of Lithuania, but this is all in Polish and with Poland. This movement was not national, there was confusion.

Now the agency wants to use it. They made up mythical names, Lithuanians, Jatwigs, Druids. These are marginal things. This is a propaganda business. But the bottom line is that the Grand Duchy was revived under the image of Belarus. And Kastus Kalinouski confirmed it ideologically and in fact confirmed with his blood. He died for it, having written a letter from under the gallows in the Belarusian language ... And there everything is concrete. That is why Kastus Kalinouski is our greatest national hero, our national symbol.

- Whom of Belarusians would you award the Nobel prize?

- Vasil Bykau. We have wonderful poets, outstanding writers. Uladzimir Karatkevich was an outstanding poet, by the way, better known as a writer, but his poetry is beautiful, especially the first collections.

There were good poets and good writers. But they worked in the Soviet Union and were forced not only to justify this ideology, but not to write about many things. This is just a tragedy of literature. After all, Kuzma Chorny is just a colossal writer! What did he have to write? “The Third Generation”, “Luba Luk’yanskaya”. In the end, he was so tortured in the NKVD, he was beaten as badly as no other writer, and they destroyed him in the end.

The literature of the Soviet period had very great talents, but it never reached the level of giving an international prize to one of these writers. But as for Bykau, he managed to rise very high during the Soviet era. And here he was most worthy of the Nobel Prize.

Speaking about poets, this is Ryhor Baradulin. Ryhor Baradulin developed, I remember him from the 1950s. I read his “Young Moon Over Heath”, all his works, I saw how the man gradually grew. During the days of the independent Belarus, this poet has grown to the world level. He wrote about transcendental things, about the life of the human spirit. He became a very deep poet. This is an example of development: the whole life a person creatively developed and reached the top at the end of his life. Baradulin deserves the Nobel Prize.

- When Belarus finally becomes free, what is the first thing the democratic president should change?

- This depends on what the new democratic president of Belarus will be like. As for me, however, and my allies who are still alive, still fighting, then in 2017 we prepared the program “Free Belarus”. There, we expressed our ideas about economics, politics, conceptual ideas of what needs to be done, what needs to be changed when Belarus is free.

The first thing that needs to be done is to free the people. The people should be given an opportunity to work and earn money under no pressure. It is important that the people should feel an opportunity to get rich. Belarusians will work. Initially, it is necessary to lower taxes as much as possible, to develop, to let people save themselves.

Given such reforms, we will build the economic basement by the efforts of such people, with our own resources. And then everything will go in parallel: education, medicine. Everything will go eventually, step by step. But, in the beginning, it is necessary to give people an opportunity to regain feet, and for this, it is necessary to give them freedom, to trust in our own people!

The moustached man is terrified with his own people. It’s something horrible to him. They try to pressure the people any way they can, so that the people could not step aside. As soon as the people start earning money somewhere, go abroad or something, they adopt a new law. They will close everything down to prevent the people from developing. They even made up this swine fever virus, to destroy this culture in Belarus. Belarusians survive on their cows and pigs, so the line must be drawn here.

Our hardworking people need an opportunity to work for themselves, to be free in this, and then they will pull the whole state and entire society out of poverty. This is the starting point. If this is not done, and we start from ideological things, it will be like in Ukraine. There will be nothing to eat, and the people will start running away to the West to earn at least something there. We need to keep people here, so that they will build their own well-being here, and there is such an opportunity.

- You are a very strong and motivated person. What inspires you? What gives you strength?

- Probably, this is my nature. I need to think this over. I never hung my nose in my life. It was very hard, but everything can be done, everything can be coped with.

I have never been a Soviet man. I was brought up in such conditions where no one recognized Bolshevism in the Vilnius region. Since childhood, I was accustomed to work, to labor. For me, many things were not a problem, although life was very hard. So given by God.

But on the other hand, applying your wording, the motivation is great in what I think about my people, about my homeland. This is a very important motivation. I have had it since childhood, all my youth. The same as my colleagues, we lived it ...

I am a very happy person, because I managed to achieve the most important thing, I managed to achieve independence of the country. Now that this has been achieved, there is a step from which we can go further. Imagine if there was no independence, if we didn’t have a country, if we lost it? This is a very important motivation for responsibility for your country, for your people. This is not a matter of some phraseology.

I'm talking about this for the first time. It goes without saying. We lived under Khrushchev, made samizdat, this was our life, so that people would be free, to live in our country, to have our own language, our own culture. It is elementary. Like air.

This is one moment. And the second is also important to me. I am deeply convinced that there is God, and non-existence. And depending on how you live, how you behave, you will receive a reward in the eternal life. This moral aspect is very important. After all, if a person does not believe in God, then he can do whatever he wants, after him even the grass can grow, there is no responsibility. He can steal, he can say whatever he wants - there is no punishment, there is no High Judgement. Religion, and not only Christianity, is built very reasonably, it provides for the responsibility of man in eternity for his existence.

Every person must come to faith himself, you cannot force into there, but I believe that this is important for everyone. Therefore, I would note such two aspects, this matters not so much for myself in particular, as for any person in general. Moral responsibility to God and responsibility to his people, to his homeland.

A person should feel grateful for everything around him. After all, there are people who believe that everyone else owe them something. But in fact it is not, everything is interconnected. That social environment in which we live, and to which we should also be grateful and have our responsibilities. And the situation is metaphysical, transcendental, spiritual. It may be difficult for some people, but for me it is natural, I grew up in an environment that thought that way.

- For the 25 years of Lukashenka’s dictatorship in the country, regardless of repressions and poor international solidarity, the Resistance remains. What would you say to the heroes who continue the struggle for the freedom of Belarus?

- It is necessary to continue the struggle. It is necessary to fight as only the one who fights wins in the end. Only so. If you do nothing, do not fight, there will be no victory. This is my advice. Fight and you will win. This is the motto.

- I sincerely thank you, Mr. Zianon, this is an unbelievable interview. I am so happy to have spoken with you.

***

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